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Original message:136 days 21 hours 3 minutes ago
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Member: Christian
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Ok, heres the question.

I have a basic understanding of the guitar. Where the notes are, some scales, modes, and stuff like that. But the scales and modes I know, i can only remember the patterns.

Lately, I was reading a guitar world mag and starting reading about the circle or thirds or something and arpeggios. I understand the minor and major 5ths and stuff, might have to look up the terminology again, but i get it.

Now Im wanting to progress my guitar playing, and my understanding of music. Are there any good sites of such detailed information? Or can anyone here care to give me some info to start off on?

Thanks in advance
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Reply:136 days 19 hours 51 minutes ago
Member: jobabrinks
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First lesson. It is the circle of fifths, not thirds. Google that and it should keep you busy for a while.
Reply:136 days 19 hours 32 minutes ago
Member: Christian
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i thought it was fifths, but wasnt sure..... read alot on it.
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Reply:136 days 17 hours 37 minutes ago
Member: Alski
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yep its fifths. Just get a picture of it and it will help you when it comes to keys and scales.
Musictheory.net is good
Fretpro is a good program for memorizing the fretboard.
I practice each of them every day.
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Reply:136 days 5 hours 5 minutes ago
Member: dcunning30
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Circle of fifths is pure theory, and has little to offer in the way of playing the guitar. It's egg-head stuff that give you a deeper understanding of musical theory. To me, theory is mathmatical, and circle of fiths is no exception. It's the relationship of keys as denoted by their notation on the staff, ie: number of sharps and flats.

If you google it and find a picture of the circle, start from C and count up a fifth, you'll get to the keys with sharps. If you count down a fourth, you'll get the keys with flats, in order of course.

BTW, counting up 5 and counting down 4 has a similar, but unrelated application to your fretboard. If you play any note in a diatonic scale (or mode) then count up a 5th, you'll get the 5th to that note. duh! But if you go back to that original note and count down a 4th, you'll STILL get the 5th of that note.

Now, are you totally confused? Try it. It makes sense.
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Reply:136 days 1 hours 38 minutes ago
Member: sallan
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"Circle of fifths is pure theory, and has little to offer in the way of playing the guitar. It's egg-head stuff that give you a deeper understanding of musical theory. To me, theory is mathmatical, and circle of fiths is no exception. It's the relationship of keys as denoted by their notation on the staff, ie: number of sharps and flats. "

It's the relationship of keys whether notated or not. Even if you don't read notation it helps to know what notes to sharp, and what notes to flat in any given key. If that, in and of itself, doesn't have a very pragmatic application to guitar I don't know what does. I find it annoying that guitarists tend to seperate themselves from the rest of the musician world, and for some reason think that learning "the egg-head stuff" has no application to what they could potentially do, like I don't know, READ MUSIC.

"If you google it and find a picture of the circle, start from C and count up a fifth, you'll get to the keys with sharps. If you count down a fourth, you'll get the keys with flats, in order of course."

Actually you count up going in both directions....the first flat key is F and although the circle goes counter clockwise for flat keys, your counting does not go down, as a fourth down for C (for example) would be G, and not F.

The way to READ, the egg headed circle is by numbers of sharps and flats correlated to the order of sharps and flats.
-----------------------------------------------
Sharp Keys:

G-D-A-E-B-F#-C# = 1-2-3-4-5-6-7

Order of sharps: F#-C#-G#-D#-A#-E#-B#

So if you can count to seven, and remember the order of 7 letters, you basically have the tools to unlock the seven sharp keys.

-----------------------------------------------

Flat Keys:

F-Bb-Eb-Ab-Db-Gb-Cb

Order of flats: Bb-Eb-Ab-Db-Gb-Cb-Fb

Again, if you can remember the order of seven letters, and count to seven, you have the tools to unlock all seven flat keys as well.
-----------------------------------------------

So how does this help you play guitar? Well, can you play in all keys? Do you know the notes contained within those keys? If not, learning the circle will fill that gap. How to learn it? Memorize the poem:

G-D-A-E-B-F#-C#

As you say each KEY count with your fingers to keep track of the corresponding number of Sharps in this case. It's something you can practice on the bus, driving to work, bored in class, or taking a dump.

Once you have memorized the Poem and each keys corresponding number, the only thing left to learn is the order of sharps. F#-C#-G#-D#-A#-E#-B#

Now once you have leaned it, say somebody calls out the key of F#. Thats at 6, six sharps, every tone is sharp except B. This is a tool to help you learn your keys, eventually you wont have to count, you will just know automatically how many sharps or flats are in a key, and what they are.

You can also use it to practice your scales. Moving around the cycle of fourths is a very practical way to practice common key changes, as each progressive step around the circle takes you to the next closely related key.
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Reply:136 days 1 hours 26 minutes ago
Member: Christian
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ok i have a question about the poem G-D-A-E-B-F#-C#

I was thinking what about regular C and F, but i guess since there is nothing in front of them, theyd have to always be sharp, right?
what i mean about nothing in front of them is like theres no B# / Cb and stuff

Anyways, How many circles are they?> Ive mentioned the circle of fifths, and now youre talking about the circle of forths.... what is the difference and stuff??
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Reply:136 days 1 hours 2 minutes ago
Member: sallan
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"ok i have a question about the poem G-D-A-E-B-F#-C#

I was thinking what about regular C and F, but i guess since there is nothing in front of them, theyd have to always be sharp, right?
what i mean about nothing in front of them is like theres no B# / Cb and stuff"

That's a fantastic question. C is no sharps, no flats...the "natural key" , and F is the first flat key. The answer to the second part of your question is there is no B# key, as that would be C, and although there is a Key of Cb, most will use the enharmonic key of B, as there are fewer accidentals.

Plus, you just pointed out another benefit of learning AND KNOWING your keys, as not knowing leads to confusion such as what about B# keys etc....not knowing the egg headed stuff leads to all kinds of unneccessary confusion that can be avoided by doing the basic work.
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Reply:136 days 1 hours 25 minutes ago
Member: dcunning30
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As a player, you know how I know my notes on the fretboard? I'm memorized them on the fretboard,. I don't consult a picture called the circle of fifths! And yes! I maintain that it's egg-head stuiff! And I know, I'm arguing with a jazz player, so I expect you're going to get all egg-head on me!
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Reply:136 days 1 hours 15 minutes ago
Member: duane
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"m memorized them on the fretboard,. I don't consult a picture called the circle of fifths! And yes! I maintain that it's egg-head stuiff!"

okay.. what is the 5th to F. ??
Reply:136 days 1 hours 9 minutes ago
Member: sallan
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Nope, I've said my piece.
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Reply:136 days 1 hours 20 minutes ago
Member: shanejohnson2002
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Also, I didn't see anyone else mention this...


There's really no such thing as minor or major 5ths. It's either a perfect 5th, a tritone, or a minor 6th.
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Reply:136 days 1 hours 19 minutes ago
Member: duane
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"Ive mentioned the circle of fifths, and now youre talking about the circle of forths"


Huh??? What are you talking about.. ???? G-D-A-E-B-F#-C# Those ARE 5ths..

I'm so confused..

Reply:136 days 1 hours 14 minutes ago
Member: Christian
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lmao, i just looked and he said cycle of forths, not circle....... but damn, this stuff gets complicated
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Reply:135 days 23 hours 4 minutes ago
Member: C_Sharp_Shredder
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heres a good free site http://www.zentao.com/guitar/theory/ .hope you find this helpfull.
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Reply:135 days 22 hours 22 minutes ago
Member: sallan
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That is a great site. I reccomend it highly!
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Reply:135 days 22 hours 10 minutes ago