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Original message:70 days 4 hours 59 minutes ago
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Member: Erk

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I'm just wondering if I'm the only one who is amazed how pathetic our presidential candidates are. This great country, which I love dearly, a country who put a man on the moon. A country that won 2 world wars. That has always been looked to for it's technology, it's power, it's wealth and it's long history of innovation and invention. A country that has always led the world as the epitome of a super power. That this wonderful, unlimited country could narrow down the presidential field to these 2 pathetic losers simply amazes me.

You cannot tell me that these are the best qualified people for the job. You cannot even convince me that either of these bums are at all qualified to be leader of the free world. It's embarrassing.

We get to choose between some big eared communist or a septagenarian who decide whether he's a liberal or conservative.

Where are the real thinkers and leaders? Has everyone given up on the concept of limited government? Is the entire country just sitting around waiting to see which one gives the biggest handout? What happened to individualism, relying on yourself instead of wondering what the government is going to take from me and redistribute? It makes me sick, neither of these guys is fit to run a 7-11 much less my country.
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Reply:70 days 3 hours 31 minutes ago
Member: RuiOlasBrandon 's
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A country that killed thousands of innocents in Iraq and Afghanistan...
A country that spyes everyone and gets all the money and oil...
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Reply:69 days 23 hours 8 minutes ago
Member: shanejohnson2002
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Yes, but also a country where you can say what you want about the government without fear of being executed. A country where you can practice whatever religion you wish without fear of some muslim, hindu, christian, whatever warlord coming in and blasting you. A country where health care may be expensive, but it is second to none. A country where you don't have to live in refugee camps just because you are in a certain tribe. A country where you don't have to fear invasion, genocide, occupation, or any of that because our military is also second to none. I've been to other countries all my life, and even with all the faults America has, I'll take it any day.

Besides, I've been to Afghanistan. I've been to Iraq. Yes, crimes were committed. But what you see on TV is the 1 or 2 bad things, because that's all that makes the news. You don't see the soldiers giving their own food to feed starving kids. You don't see the soldiers giving their last first aid supplies to help save some guy who just tried to kill them. You don't see the friendships, you don't see the acts of courage and love not only for the fellow Americans, but for the Iraqis and Afghans we are defending. War is hell, no doubt, and we're not even sure if this war is everything we are told it is. But, even in the midst of that hell, there are beautiful human moments that would make the toughest guy cry.

And the "thousands" we have killed in those places, 99.9% of the time, were trying to kill us. Before you say "that's because you're in their country", realize that most of the people we saw in Iraq trying to shoot us or blow us up, weren't even Iraqis. In fact, they were just as eager to kill an Iraqi soldier or police man as they were one of us. Which is why they still bomb marketplaces and malls. In Afghanistan, it is because that is where their organization is housed, and their organization planned and carried out an attack that killed thousands here on our soil. If someone from the US blew up some tower in Lisbon, I'd bed you'd want to come over here and do something about it too.

I'm not saying this place is everyone's bag, and I'm certainly not going to deride you for saying what you think about it. But you don't live here, so don't judge it unless you do. You don't see me telling you how badly Portugal sucks, because I truly don't know. I've only been to Spain.
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Reply:69 days 20 hours 11 minutes ago
Member: Fred Kraus
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I'd like to see how the Portuguese would deal with having thousands of innocent civilians killed just for going to work! I'll never forget that god-damned day as long as I live! Our soldiers are not the bad guys, they are not a bunch of evil baby killers, and I'm sick and tired of people who don't know jack shit talking trash about the US and the American people, telling us how wrong we are for defending ourselves. Your entitled to your opinion, but I'm entitled to mine, and if you think for one second our soldiers want to be there you are dead wrong! We are not a genocidal nation! We don't shoot women who are accused of adultery. We don't put contracts out on people who draw pictures that offend us. The awful torture at Abu Ghraib was done by a few morons, and those morons were caught and put in jail. I defy you to find one middle eastern country that would do that!
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Reply:68 days 14 hours 8 minutes ago
Member: evol666
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I have to call you out on Abu Ghraib and torture in general. Yes, the jury is still out, but more and more evidence is pointing to torture at Abu Ghraib and other prisons being sanctioned at the highest levels of *our* government by Rumsfeld, Bush, and Powell. I find it hard to believe that it's a few bad apples. Do you think soldiers would be permitted to act in this manner if it was not allowed or ordered by their commanding officers?

Not sure about you, but it makes me very uncomfortable. As the world's super power, we do have an obligation to take the moral high ground, even when we know our enemy will not.

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Reply:68 days 11 hours 1 minutes ago
Member: Fred Kraus
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I have to agree with you there. Point well taken.
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Reply:68 days 9 hours 13 minutes ago
Member: dcunning30
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If you call parading naked men on all fours and with a dog leash, or making naked men pose as a human pyramid, or making a hooded man stand on top of a stool torture, then I suppose yuou have a point. But in the real world consideration of what truly is torture, abu girab is a walk in the park. Google torture and you'll see abu girab doesn't even come close.
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Reply:68 days 8 hours 44 minutes ago
Member: Fred Kraus
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I've heard conflicting stories on what happened at Abu Ghraib. So I can't answer with any certainty one way or the other. If that's all that happened at Abu Ghraib, and other prisons, then I really don't call that torture. But there's been rumors that one guy was beaten to death, but I don't know how true that is. In any case, whatever happened at Abu Ghraib is nothing compared to what has happened to GI's who found themselves at the mercy of al-Qaeda. There was no mercy! I do believe however that we can't allow ourselves to sink to the level of al-Qaeda, which, as far as I know, we have not. I've heard so much reporting on the "abuses" at Abu Ghraib, that I honestly don't know what to believe. I wish our media would try reporting a little more about the abuses of the Taliban, and al-Qaeda.
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Reply:67 days 23 hours 35 minutes ago
Member: dcunning30
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You have a point there, Fred. All I can say is there are people in jail right now, so somebody did something. But I refuse to believe what did ocurr is a reflection of our military. On the contrary, I consider it an aberration. But what disgusts me the most is how many prominent americans willingly approached the podium and gave our enemies a propaganda bonanza. We had US senators behaving like Tokyo Rose, but instead of being arrested, they were given high fives. It's mind boggling.
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Reply:67 days 23 hours 2 minutes ago
Member: evol666
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Just to be clear, I am I against torture in all forms. And yes, al-Qaeda and other terrorist groups take torture to a new level of inhumanity. I do not think there is any dispute on that point. Anyone involved in torture has earned a day in court to be tried, convicted, and fully punished. This should hold true whether the person is a low level pawn in al-Qaeda or former secretary of defense.

To your point, I do not think this is a reflection of our military either. It's a reflection of this administration and their fucked up, short sighted policies. I firmly believe all torture was sanctioned and ordered at the top of the chain. This is not normal behavior and I feel for the solders that were made scapegoats.
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Reply:69 days 18 hours 56 minutes ago
Member: ibzRG
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The more stupid the president, the more easily he can be manipulated by the powers that be. True innovators and idealists are bad for the big money holders and they can't find enough support (political and financial) in order to run for presidents. Having only two parties to choose from also means there are no real options or opportunities for more people to step forward. Anyway, JWB set the expectations so low that ANYONE looks like a mesiah compared to him.


There are other things I want to say too, but I don't want to go into USA-sucks mode. I think we have discussed that subject enough in other threads and my view is biased. All I will say is that I refuse to recognize that you have more freedom of speech than anywhere else. Movies and books are still banned occasionally over there. Granted, there's worse, but you're not the best in that field.


And Erk, when I think "technology", I think Germany or Japan. Never US.
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Reply:69 days 17 hours 4 minutes ago
Member: shanejohnson2002
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Name one movie or book that has been banned. I challenge you.

And as far as technology, you should visit the Silicon Valley sometime. Or Groom Lake research center. Or Aberdeen Army Proving Grounds. I work with technology in my military capacity that makes star trek look ancient. no teleporters or anything like that, but there is some amazing stuff out there. And most of what we use is designed and built right here in the US.
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Reply:69 days 16 hours 58 minutes ago
Member: Fred Kraus
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He's got a real hard on for Americans. I don't know what the deal is.
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Reply:69 days 16 hours 54 minutes ago
Member: shanejohnson2002
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Well he's not a bad guy by any means...like he said everyone has their own opinion. I'm just challenging his viewpoint, asking for some proof. Nothing wrong or aggressive about that at all. Besides, his country invented the main idea behind our governmental system.

I just like to argue, in case you can't tell ;)

And before anyone thinks i am one of those uncultured Americans that has never been outside of Texas, I grew up in the Air Force and traveled all over the world until I was 17. Now i am in the Army and still travel. I have seen other places, and I will take this one any day.

Although I am envious of the long history some other places have. Greece, Japan, etc.
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